katallison | A little HL thought experiment

A little HL thought experiment

So today I *finally* watched "The Innocent," which is, amazingly, one of the very few HL episodes I hadn't yet seen--amazingly, because it's the one with Callum Keith Rennie as Kimmie-of-the-Week (and may I just say, the man looks *damn* good with a big sword, to say nothing of the swirling black duster ... *guh*).

Anyway, here's the thought experiment, for all the HL mavens in the reading audience:

It seems to me from my viewing that what made Duncan finally realize there was no solution to the problem of Mikey (none, that is, except for the Methosian one: "Take his head, problem solved") was his discovery that Mikey had, in his Of-Mice-and-Men way, killed a couple of people without intending it, that he was incapable of controlling his actions or his strength. Up until then Duncan had been willing to go with Richie's let's-save-Mikey program, to the point of being willing to take on Tyler King to defend him. And then by the end of the episode, he'd come around to deciding to kill Mikey, and then letting Richie take that on.

Now, here's the thought experiment: if Duncan had come to this realization somewhat earlier in the episode, would he have stood aside and let Tyler King whack Mikey? It's clear that King didn't represent any immediate threat to Duncan himself, or to Richie; King's message was "Get out of the way and let me have this guy." Could Duncan have brought himself to refrain from intervening in the killing of an Immortal who, however innocent and helpless, however much under his protection, was capable of harming mortals? Could he have stood by and let that happen?

It may seem like a minor issue, but it's interesting to me as a question of how Duncan handles his sense of responsibility, how far he extends his authority. It would make an interesting story, anyway. (And I'm not saying this just because I would kind of, sneakingly, like to have seen Tyler King survive the episode ... maybe come back and, oh, say, buddy up with Methos ... ::self-thwack:: OK, sorry, hormones got away with me there.)

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Taking a whack at this, so to speak :

Yes and no.

If Tyler King hadn't come on as such a headhunter, out to slaughter the innocent, maybe. In that case, if for example the people Mikey had killed were King's family instead of the reverse, Duncan might even have stopped Richie from interfering.

But as it was? With Tyler obviously out for any Immie he could get? I don't see it happening.

But oh, yeah, Tyler/Methos. We need more of this, and not just the one or two that are out there. And what about the possibilities (dare I suggest it) of Tyler/Joe Dick?

if for example the people Mikey had killed were King's family instead of the reverse, Duncan might even have stopped Richie from interfering.

In total agreement here. He'd have felt bad about the whole thing, but he would have stepped back, I think.

But as it was? With Tyler obviously out for any Immie he could get? I don't see it happening.

See, the thing is, though, Tyler didn't come across to me as out for any Immie he could get. He didn't, for example, make even the slightest move toward Richie, who I think might as well have had "Newbie! Inexperienced! Take My Head, I'm Not Using It!" painted on his chest. Tyler was an opportunist, in my eyes, out for an easy head, unburdened by conscience, but not a mad-dog killer, like Kalas or Kronos. My hunch (and it's only that) is that Tyler is much more the norm for Immies, and simply reflects the overall human propensity for easy gain, me first.

The other thing that really interests me in that episode is that, during the final Duncan-Tyler fight, you can just *see* how much Duncan is *loving* it. I mean, maybe he got into it to defend the weak and so on, but by the time the swords start flashing--you look at the grin on his face, his stance, everything, and you're reminded once again--MacLeod just plain loves the fight.

Which is not a bad thing in him, it's what's kept him alive this long. He's not a headhunter or anything. But he loves to fight. It's his gift.

But oh, yeah, Tyler/Methos. We need more of this, and not just the one or two that are out there.

Hah! I might've known that my beloved sistern-in-slash would've gotten there ahead of me. Are there any good ones out there, do you know?

And what about the possibilities (dare I suggest it) of Tyler/Joe Dick?

Kit, you are a sick and (as your user name suggests) twisted woman. Oh my golly. No, I am *not* going to write it. You evil wench, you. *g*

See, the thing is, though, Tyler didn't come across to me as out for any Immie he could get. He didn't, for example, make even the slightest move toward Richie, who I think might as well have had "Newbie! Inexperienced! Take My Head, I'm Not Using It!" painted on his chest.

Well, that's Richie all over. Little Brother to the World.

Tyler was an opportunist, in my eyes, out for an easy head, unburdened by conscience, but not a mad-dog killer, like Kalas or Kronos. My hunch (and it's only that) is that Tyler is much more the norm for Immies, and simply reflects the overall human propensity for easy gain, me first.

Um, maybe and no. (So decisive...) He may be the norm for *younger* Immies, say, less than 300 years old.

The other thing that really interests me in that episode is that, during the final Duncan-Tyler fight, you can just *see* how much Duncan is *loving* it. I mean, maybe he got into it to defend the weak and so on, but by the time the swords start flashing--you look at the grin on his face, his stance, everything, and you're reminded once again--MacLeod just plain loves the fight.

Definitely. And this reminds me of a discussion I saw somewhere (can't recall where) that noted that Buffy's "addiction" wasn't to Spike but to violence. Given the choice, she'd beat her way out of any situation. I'd be interested to know if anyone has written a story with Duncan and Buffy talking about this.

Hah! I might've known that my beloved sistern-in-slash would've gotten there ahead of me. Are there any good ones out there, do you know?

I can't say I was that impressed with the ones I read; I just remember them because of the character combination. They seemed a bit OOC for me.

>>And what about the possibilities (dare I suggest it) of Tyler/Joe Dick?

Kit, you are a sick and (as your user name
suggests) twisted woman. Oh my golly. No, I am *not* going to write it. You evil wench, you. *g*

Hey, don't look at me. Tyler sneers at me and Joe Dick won't even say hello. Then again, most of my guys aren't talking right now. Guess they're on summer vacation.
Kit, you are a sick and (as your user name suggests) twisted woman. Oh my golly. No, I am *not* going to write it. You evil wench, you. *g*

Hey, I just finished watching that too! And yeah, helluva plot twist there at the end.

Judging from the admittedly tiny sample I've seen, though, Duncan can't resist a lost puppy, *especially* if it walks on two legs. So hmmm. I think it possible he might still have defended Mikey from Tyler. I just can't see him saying, "Okay, sure, go ahead, kill him." Even when he realized it had to be done (and I was *so* thinking "Old Yeller") it's not like he *wanted* to.

And guh, but Callum in a duster is hotter than a very very hot thing. I need more. Lonesome Dove, here I come...

I just can't see him saying, "Okay, sure, go ahead, kill him." Even when he realized it had to be done

Which is kind of where I hang up too, although then I think of him stepping aside and letting Methos whack Kristin...

And guh, but Callum in a duster is hotter than a very very hot thing. I need more. Lonesome Dove, here I come...

(a) Testify, sister! (b) Is Callum in Lonesome Dove?? Why the hell did I never know this??

Which is kind of where I hang up too, although then I think of him stepping aside and letting Methos whack Kristin...

That's another interesting set-up, what with Kristin having gone after Richie. How many corners on that little affair? But Duncan historically has trouble fighting with people he's slept with -- or wanted to sleep with -- Kleopatra (or whatever her name was) to the contrary. It's not chivalry, it's sentiment. And Methos's sentimentality runs in the opposite direction -- he's sentimental about Joe and, to a certain amount, about Duncan, but he doesn't let it keep him from doing the task at hand. Nothing stops him.

Which is kind of where I hang up too, although then I think of him stepping aside and letting Methos whack Kristin...

I see this as very different. Methos wasn't just out for an easy Quickening, as King was, he was doing what he felt needed to be done. And unlike Mikey, Kristin could (theoretically) defend herself, she had a sword, and she was an adult who understood the Game. She understood that a relationship with another Immortal could lead to a challenge. So I guess I don't see the situations as similar -- bad guy wanting to take head of innocent vs ambiguous guy wanting a fair fight with definitely not innocent.

I think CKR is cute, too, but I have to say -- I can't see Methos having anything to do with the King character as we actually saw him portrayed. At worst, he's evil, wanting to rack up Quickenings at any cost. At best, he's an opportunist, out for easy kills wherever he can find them. I can't see the Methos we know and love exposing himself physically to such a person, much less becoming emotionally close.

I think so ... Betty sent me a tape, anyway. Didn't get a chance to watch it yet.

And even if not, cowboys. Mmmm. (I have hidden shallows. *g*)

The question, IMO, really is can Duncan stay out of something that's not any of his business, and my general answer is "no." I don't think Duncan would have let it slide because one, Tyler King was a bad guy (and we know how DM feels about that), and two, TK would have Mikey's quickening added to his which, even though Mikey was retarded, he was still strong, and there's that Q-thang.

What I couldn't believe was that Duncan would have let Richie to do it. Not that Richie didn't need a little reality check.

(I always go back to the outtakes from that ep, with Richie, Duncan and Mikey, and Mikey talks about not taking any of their shit anymore...heee)

I agree to all of this, except I can believe that Duncan let Richie do it, more because it felt like Richie was into handling the responsiblity himself.

If Tyler King had been more of the sort like that guy who came after Kenny because Kenny killed his wife, then I say, yes. But he wasn't.

And CKR is in another episode, isn't he? Playing a mortal I believe in the ep with Annie Devlin.

: if Duncan had come to this realization somewhat earlier in the episode, would he have stood aside and let Tyler King whack Mikey?

Once MacLeod had driven King off his own property, he'd have thought about it. He'd have compared Mikey to Cimoli and Ursa and maybe the defenses he'd offered on behalf of Kenny. He'd most likely still decide it was his duty to kill Mikey rather than letting him wander off to be slaughtered.

Accepting responsibility (and acting as host) for an "innocent," even a deadly one, put MacLeod under an obligation to solve the problem himself. It would be a matter of humanity and manners. Let loose, unsupervised, Mikey might kill again before King got to him; he might suffer from hunger or confusion or exposure before he was killed. While he might not have interfered in a confrontation between Mikey and King, once he found out Mikey had no control over killing mortals, I can't see MacLeod, or Richie, either turning Mikey out like a stray puppy or leading him by the hand to King to be killed.

Yes, I agree with you. I think you've hit upon the key that makes the difference for Duncan in this situation. He accepted responsibility (and by extension, expected Richie to accept a share of the responsibility) in the same way he did with Ursa, and with Kenny, until he found out what Kenny really was. Tyler King was just an inconvenience -- and since Tyler decided to force the issue, a bit of sport on the side. *g* Also, I think Duncan would have seen Mikey's death at his hand or Richie's as more honorable, and therefore more desirable, than stepping aside and letting King kill him. The difference between putting a dog who's started biting people to sleep, and throwing him into an alligator pit.

Also, I totally agree with Melina. Even though I count myself among the CKR-appreciative, Tyler and Methos? Eh. Why? But Billy Tallent and Methos? I'm there. *swoons*

(and may I just say, the man looks *damn* good with a big sword, to say nothing of the swirling black duster ... *guh*)

guh indeed.

and wouldn't a tyler-methos romp be so utterly full of hotness and....and...

AU! AU!

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A little HL thought experiment

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i am SO SHALLOW