Hmm.

[katallison]

OK, I'm still trying to write a Vividcon con report, with marked lack of success, but in the meantime -- I'm very curious about something I've come across a couple of times lately in LJ comments, and that is the issue of the name you use to refer to a character when you're writing a close-3rd-person-POV story about that character.

Ahem. Let me see if I can be clearer. Say I'm writing a story in 3rd person about Fraser, where he's the POV character. I always refer to him as "Fraser" because that's, y'know, what I call the guy. But I've seen a couple of people lately saying that in such situations the name used should be the one that the character himself uses when he thinks about himself, so the question is does he think of himself as Fraser, or Ben, or Benton, or whatever?

See, in my head this is kind of, sort of, related to the issue flambeau was talking about a while ago (here, to be specific), where you can't sneak in descriptive stuff by having the POV character musing about his own tautly muscled abs or emerald eyes or whatever, or on the other hand providing detailed descriptions of scenes he regularly moves through and is familiar with to the point of obliviousness. You have to maintain the authenticity/integrity of the character's own awareness. And one could argue, I guess, that using the name the character would use about himself inwardly is part of that authenticity-maintenance, except -- I dunno, I just have never thought of it that way. It feels strange to me, and I'd love to hear others' views.

Comments

[eliade.livejournal.com]

I have so much trouble with that! Well...come to think, more with reading than with writing. It's most notable for me with Fraser (Ben) and Snape (Severus), just off the top of my head. I've gotten bettern in both cases at accepting the first names, but often it'll read weird to me. Especially with Fraser: "Ben" is incredibly difficult to accept, as we almost never hear it on the show.

I am unhelpful, but thought I'd peep. *g*

[hesychasm]

Instinctually, I'd say referring to him as "Fraser" is okay because it's still third person. It's from his POV, but even so there remains a bit of omniscient distance from him for both writer and reader.

This is kind of related to a question I've always had about people who write Mulder. In XF fic, whenever he's thinking to himself about something, or addressing himself in his own thoughts, more often than not authors would still have him use his last name. As in, "Mulder thought to himself, Mulder, you should really quit yanking Skinner's chain."

It always threw me off -- for all the show made a habit of "Mulder this" and "Mulder that," it was still, in a way, third person. So wouldn't the character, talking to himself in second person, at least address himself as "Fox"? Or did fanfic writers consciously choose to portray him as that dysfunctional?

[zoerayne]

So wouldn't the character, talking to himself in second person, at least address himself as "Fox"? Or did fanfic writers consciously choose to portray him as that dysfunctional?

I don't know how dysfunctional it is, but I firmly believe that Mulder thinks of himself by his last name. He makes it clear early on that he really hates his first name and that no one uses it (except maybe his mother). A story where he thought of himself as "Fox" would throw me out so fast that I'd probably never finish it. YMMV.

[yonmei.livejournal.com]

I think there are two forces at play here, and for good fanfiction, I think you need the conflict between the two forces, rather than for one of them to win.

Force One: The POV character should refer to themselves by the name which they think of themselves. So for example, if you are writing a story in which Methos is the POV character, if you wish to write him referring to himself as "Adam Pierson" (or any other temporary name) you have to be conscious that you are writing him as someone who steeps himself so deeply in his current character that he does not think of himself as anyone but his current character.

Force Two: The wish to use the name by which the character is commonly known to fans, by which they will expect to see the character named. If you avoid using this name, I think you then have to work twice as hard to make sure that the character is visibly, audibly, at all times, in character* - that even without the known name in use, a casual fan reader would still know who the character was.

To a certain extent (this is the only thing that explains the success of bad fanfic, IMO) people read fanfic for the names. Maybe Fraser does think of himself as "Ben", but if you write a Fraser POV story where "Fraser" is only used when someone in the story is speaking to Ben or referring to Ben... well, the POV character is going to have to be very notably Fraserish, and even then, some readers are going to complain.

Which is why I think the interplay works. Figuring out why a character will switch from one name to the other - how David Newman can be peaceably reshelving books in a university library somewhere, when he feels the buzz and Methos makes a quick dash for the nearest group of students and spends the next two hours sitting in a crowded student canteen pretending to read a book and surreptitiously trying to spot the immortal who was in the library.

*and really, we should strive for this anyway.

[therealjae.livejournal.com]

Wow, what a fascinating question. I've never written a character in the third person who wasn't normally referred to by his given name, so it's not one that's come up for me, but I'm inclined to agree that it should be the character's own name for himself.

Let me try to recast this in a context I'm more familiar with than "Due South." On the West Wing, President Josiah Bartlet (whom I've never written as a POV character) is usually referred to on the show either as "Mr. President," or "Bartlet." If I were to write something from his POV, though, I think I'd use the name that we've seen his wife call him, i.e., Jed. It might feel a little strange because we rarely see him being called that, but it would feel equally strange for him to be thinking of himself as 'Bartlet' or (ugh) 'the President'.

It's not a question with an easy answer, though, I think. And interestingly, this is one thing that writers of original fiction don't have to grapple with, for obvious reasons. It's fanfiction-specific.

-J

[oracne.livejournal.com]

providing detailed descriptions of scenes he regularly moves through and is familiar with to the point of obliviousness. You have to maintain the authenticity/integrity of the character's own awareness

True, but there's a trick one can use sometimes to show environment or similar in a tight 3rd--have something be different that day, different enough that the pov character notices.

Like, "Duncan was taken aback by the unusual messiness of Methos' apartment: his pop art posters had been torn down from the walls spilled from the dining room table, and his collection of Iron Age dildos now lay in the fruit bowl Joe had given him for Xmas."

As for the name thing, I figure which name a person calls themself is a telling fact. Benton Fraser could very well think of himself as "Fraser." Or maybe not.

[cofax7]

That's a good question. It's a tension, I guess, between what would really be in character for the character -- and thus believability/respectability for the author -- and what would be more likely to keep the reader in the story.

I think Dana Scully is a good example (although Jintian used Mulder, I think Scully works better): she is called "Scully" almost exclusively during the run of the show. But ... I think she still thinks of herself as "Dana".

So, yeah, to be perfectly in character all my intimate-third-person fic should use "Dana" and not "Scully". But then I don't do intimate third person: I always leave her some distance, and I never try first person because it just doesn't work (for me, with her). And the readers don't think of her as "Dana": she's "Scully" to all of us. So I use "Scully", and that keeps the audience with me, even if it sacrifices a tiny bit of believability in the pov, or gives the pov more distance than it would otherwise have.

Does that make any sense?

[callmesandy.livejournal.com]

Or the perennial Sports Night question of Dan or Danny. I think I used to have Casey think of Dan as "Danny" when it was Casey POV, but Dan thought of himself as Dan. And usually referred to himself when speaking of himself in 3rd POV as Dan, as well. (And I once did a really geeky study of this, man, I'm such a loser.)

I do think in 3rd POV, depending on how very very limited it is, the character would think of him/herself by, hmm, the name they used when referring to themselves. Does Fraser ever speak himself in the third person to guide you there?

Plus, you get the thorny question of relatives in 3rd person limited. Clearly, even if we as readers know the name first and last of the main POV's character's mother, they wouldn't be thinking, "my mother, Jane Doemommy." And I always end up with these odd constructions of "his mother said," "his mom's garden," to maintain that.

The only time I ever got away with someone admiring their taut abs in 3rd person POV was in a body-switching story. Heh.

[thete1.livejournal.com]

I tend to be of the school where, in tight-third, the POV character should *always* refer to himself the way s/he would, well, refer to himself. It's all part of staying in character. So, if I think Snape thinks of himself as Severus, I *have* to keep typing Severus, no matter how often it makes me twitch. And so on.

Though I'll admit I *will* adjust my personal views of the characters in such a way that they *have* to refer to themselves the way I want them to. If that makes any sense.

[hesychasm]

Yeah, I know, I do try to take into account the name-hating thing, and I do believe he makes sure everyone else calls him Mulder, but just...when it comes to Mulder talking to himself, I'm still on the other side of the fence.

Albeit not religiously. (g)

[debchan.livejournal.com]

See, I always apply the Fletch Factor in cases like this. (Fletch being Irwin Maurice Fletcher from the Gregory MacDonald books.) Fletch hates his first name, so he is Fletch whether he's thinking of himself, or he's in bed with Moxie and she's calling his name as she orgasms.

Now, I don't think Fraser hates his first name, but I have no problem with him thinking of himself as Fraser, because that's what everyone calls him. (Even Victoria did, didn't she?) It doesn't jar for me like Snape thinking of himself as Snape would. He's just...*helpless shrug* Fraser.

[merryish.livejournal.com]

I had the same issue with Fraser in the Great Epic of Long Unfinishedness. I did decide to go with "Ben" in his inner voice, in the end, because a guy who thinks of himself as "Fraser" isn't the guy I was writing, and because his dad (if memory serves) refers to him occasionally as Ben. It seems likely to me that he'd think of himself by the name his parents called him. And "Benton" is just too stiff for the character I'm writing.

It's also a cool way to signal a POV change when I'm not planning to use more than a section break -- the flip to Fraser puts it firmly in Ray's PoV without me having to do any extra work (and I am aaaaaalll about me having to do no extra work).

Bottom line, though -- I know it's probably going to mean a sacrifice to a lot of fans in terms of readability, but it's the only way I could make it sound right to *me*. And since I'm not really in the fandom and don't expect it to make much noise when I finally post (Merry WHO?), I'm mostly just doing it for myself.

[bethbethbeth.livejournal.com]

"Hmmm," she says, commenting in LJ for the first time in a week. "This is always a tricky question, isn't it?"

If this is a story set during the Chicago years, and with Fraser on his own (i.e., not in a relationship), then I think using "Fraser" is the way to go. If he's involved with someone, however, then he *might* think of himself as Benton.

On the other hand, let's say a story is set ten years in the future and he's back in Canada? Well...if enough of the people around his posting are calling him by his first name, then Benton wouldn't sound as odd as it might during his time in Chicago.

What I'm saying is that for *me*, it depends on time and circumstances and environment. I mean, one of my little flashfiction stories was set (in part) when Fraser was a little boy. The story was tight third, and *there* he was Ben (because 'Fraser' would have sounded ridiculous).

I'm sure both Rays, however, think of themselves as Ray.

[bluster.livejournal.com]

I can't remember the episode, but there is a scene between Mulder and Scully in the car where she calls him Fox. He interrupts her and says that after awhile he even asked him parents to call him Mulder. So fo him I definitely think he would think of himself that way.

As for Fraser...I have to admit that I can go either way with this one. As someone else said, there's a distance in third person that allows for the use of "Fraser." Plus, I'm not so sure he wouldn't think of himself that way at times since it's what he hears most of the time. But at the same time it makes more sense for him to think of himself as "Ben."

It is interesting that it's not something that's come up before.

[jacquez.livejournal.com]

I think this is part of why I write in first person so often: I don't think of myself as "Laura", or "Jac", or anything at ALL except for "I" or "me".

So I have trouble wrapping my head around this whole thing, because it's not something I really *do*.

When I do it--infrequently and uncomfortably--I stick with names that it would be reasonable for the character to use for him/herself. Methos, for example, probably doesn't think of himself as Adam ("I wouldn't stay in any hotel Adam Pierson could afford."), and Ray K has gone to some lengths to eliminate the use of his first name in favor of "Ray" - but some characters we don't have such a clear statement from.

So for Duncan MacLeod, "Duncan" and "MacLeod" seem fine to me, though "Mac" tends to throw me off (it feels too contemporary to be part of his permanent identity); for Fraser, I'm inclined towards "Ben" or "Benton" but don't object to "Fraser". These are personal choices, though, because I don't know how the character really feels about his name.

[zoerayne]

I think it's very much the same thing that flambeau was talking about. The name used in a 3rd-person-limited POV story should be the one that the character would use for themselves. Whether that's a first name, last name, or nickname would depend on the character, but anything else feels wrong to me. I think that's because it creates an artificial "distance" between the reader and the POV character.

As hesychasm pointed out, Mulder's written as a last-name kind of guy, and I think that works because of his own hang-ups. Canon supports it.

On the other hand, Fraser I'm ambivalent about. Based on what we've seen with his pre-Chicago friends, I'm probably most comfortable with seeing "Ben" in a tight 3rd-person story, though "Fraser" doesn't *usually* throw me out of the story. (Having RayV address him as "Ben" or "Benton," though.... That bothers me.)

On the third hand [g], it does bother me when, in an HP story, the POV character is called by their last name. If it's Dumbledore's story, he's Albus. The same for any of the characters, despite the fact that we're used to seeing them referred to by their surnames in canon. How odd would it be to see Harry referred to as "Potter" in one of Rowling's books? It's the same thing, IMO.

Obviously, all of the above examples don't count usage by other characters in dialogue. And that reminds me of a rant by...someone (and I just went through 600 recent friends entries unsuccessfully looking for it) about the use of bizarre and non-canonical nicknames in dialogue in HP stories.

[jacquez.livejournal.com]

Forgot to say - this is part of why it makes me INSANE when DS writers use "Stan" for Ray K.

The man has clearly tried to get the name "Stanley" out of his life; I'm damn sure he doesn't think of himself as "Stan". No. No. Stop that. Don't make me come over there and hit you with a stick.

[kassrachel.livejournal.com]

Yeah. Absolutely. The only story I've made it through which uses "Stan" to refer to Kowalski was Fuzzicat's long one that was rec'd in ds_flashback recently -- it centers around a RayV/RayK romance with a side of Fraser thrown in, and my guess is that Fuzzi opted to use "Ray" and "Stan" because that was the easiest way to distinguish the two Rays. I got used to it after a while, and sort of read past it, but it's still something that bugs me -- I can't see Kowalski thinking of himself as "Stan."

As others have said, above, I think you can get away with using "Fraser" to refer to Fraser as narrator of a third-person story -- especially if there's some distance implied in the narration. "Fraser walked out of the cabin and thought of how much he missed Chicago" reads perfectly fine to me, for instance. (I'm trying now to think of a sentence in which using his last name wouldn't work for me, and I can't seem to come up with one just now...)

[zoerayne]

Based on experience, when you change your name the way he did (even if it's just making everyone use your surname instead of your given name), after a while you don't think of yourself by the "old" name anymore.

Though, as was pointed out elsewhere in this thread, sometimes it can depend on the time period. I changed my name over 12 years ago. I no longer think of myself by the old name; I don't even react to hearing people call it in a crowd. That point took me a few years, though, to get to. When I first changed my name, I went by a diminutive version of the new name almost exclusively. Over the last 2-1/2 years, though, everyone at my job has used the full version of my name, so I've actually started signing posts and introducing myself that way; I no longer think of myself using the diminutive.

If I'm OK, the rest of you must be odd

[suzecarol.livejournal.com]

Do real people really think of themselves by name, rather than as 'me' or 'I'? Is this something I should be doing -- not as a writer, but in real life? Or at least, when I'm trying to pass as normal?

The whole thing makes me wonder if I'm stranger than I thought. And, BTW, that thought was not "Suze, maybe you're really strange," but "Maybe I'm really strange." *weg*

[gwyn-r.livejournal.com]

I'm constantly surprised by the "rules" that fanfic readers believe exist, and some of the answers here in your LJ perplex me greatly. I just never see these things come up in my RL fiction circles, and I'm always curious where these "rules" come from and why they're widely understood to be the correct way to write.

I think you can have him calling himself anything you want and that makes the story work for you. I can't count how many people battered me for using Walter and Skinner interchangeably, and I shared it with some of my writer friends and they all laughed as hard as I did. Most people simply don't think of themselves by name -- I could be unusual in this respect, but I don't think of myself by name ever. So it's a device that in no way mirrors our real lives, it exists soley to help move the reader through the narrative and give a foundation for the viewpoint. If it's not a first-person narrative, the way the character would think of themselves is... basically, not at all, so anything is relevant.

If using Fraser makes you more comfortable, that's what you should do. And if Ben fits in that particular passage, then use it -- sometimes for intimate moments between characters, when you've used he too much, that's the right time for a more intimate name. There is no law or device for this; those fans who tell you different are just perpetuating more of those writing rule myths that I often find so destructive to good writing. You're an *exceptional* writer, and there's nothing you can do that won't work well, in my not even remotely humble opinion. ;-)

[eliade.livejournal.com]

I admit I veer back and forth on "Ben." It can be done well, so that it becomes almost invisible, if the characterization is otherwise dead-on. And then again in some other writer's hands it can grate.

Fandom trends can also affect reading. I did become more used to "Ben" as I read more stories where it was used. There have to be pioneers for that, though, and people may find it a process of adjustment rather than an immediate acceptance.

It's kind of unfair, really, to have to work with that handicap of canonical naming convention(s), and I think you and Gwyn--in her comment lower down--both are correct in that you should just make the choice that works best for you as a writer. That's all any of us can do, really. (She said pretentiously! ;>)

[eliade.livejournal.com]

(She said pretentiously! ;>)

And of course by "she" I meant "me." I hope that was clear. *g*

[theodosia.livejournal.com]

Thought of two good examples that illustrate inner and outer names -- the classic comic book Superman probably thinks of himself as "Clark" most of the time. (And of course the SV Clark doesn't have that issue yet.) But Batman/Bruce Wayne -- yeah, if he's in the right mood, he'll think of himself as Batman.

Re: If I'm OK, the rest of you must be odd

[septembergrrl.livejournal.com]

I think of myself as Beth, which is what I was called as a child.

I don't have an opinion about due south (I got to this post from my friend's list), but I agree that Scully thinks of herself as Dana, and Mulder thinks of himself as Mulder. He just made it too clear he did not like the name Fox (well, who would?), whereas Scully seemed to only go by her last name in the professional context.

I'm mostly from Buffy fandom. I think Giles *probably* thinks of himself as Rupert or Ripper most of the time, but I wouldn't put money on it or anything. I can't remember -- what did Olivia and Jenny call him?